iceracer
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posted on 27-2-2008 at 17:16
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why not fixed controllers at worlds?
With all that is available electronically, surely there are those so clever with devices like controllers that they would be able to gain a clear and
distinct advantage with them?
We use supplied controllers here and they work just fine, no chance for hanky panky!
Thoughts?
Terry
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fola
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posted on 27-2-2008 at 23:16
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are you making accusations?????
then you could also have "Supplied Cars" supplied drivers supplied everything....
Think the idea sucks... bad.
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Massiven
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 06:12
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mouahaha...
I'm following several duscussions in the german scale forum. they are talking about the acd controller who gives voltage peaks back to the track when
you brake. I also read the word traction controll in one of the threads.
Could it be that somebody also read these articles and only by then the idea came to forbid the "traction controll".
cheers,
De Massiven
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Big Al
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 07:30
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I agree with Mike,
ACD "et al" controllers do provide drivers with more control than other electronic controllers, it's a known fact. YES I'M MAKING AN ACCUSATION
FOLA! 
Worlds events should be run like in Barca, with the same controllers supplied on the track. Everyone has the same tools. Remove any 'adjustments" or
make them inaccessable, and then the racing results will look different.
Regards
Big Al
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PorscheFreak
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 07:57
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The ACD Pro gives voltage spikes (when braking) towards the PSU only, not towards the track.
As far as I have understood, there's no true traction control available in the controllers, just that some manufacturers like to call some of their
features as such. At SlotForum there's been a discussion about "traction control": http://www.slotforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28944&hl=traction+control.
ACD Pro might have an edge compared to some other controllers, when decelarating (not braking, but when just easing the trigger) as it "forces" (PWM
feature) the motor to this "power level" compared to analogue systems where it might take some more time to reach that same motor RPM. The question
is where to draw the line of the "unfair advantage": e.g. don't some "serious" non-PWM controllers (e.g. DiFalco) have an edge as well compared
to a "basic" resistor controller like Parma Economy which do not have full throttle relay? Or what about controllers with adjustable throttle curve
or brake compared to a basic Parma Economy which does not have either?
Where's the border? I believe it has so far been "any controller as long as it does not increase the voltage to the track" ?
/Pekka
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Massiven
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 08:11
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Hi,
these questions have already treatened in the german forum too. Just to let you know why the discussion was started:
somebody, who wishes to enter the DPM this year, races the ACD 3 controller since it has been released. So he is used to it, kinda normal I think. The
DPM rules say, that any controller raising the voltage (no matter if it goes to the PSU or track, and no matter if the voltage is incread during
acceleration or braking) is forbidden. Just to prove the peak, the have an oscillo. to mesure theses peaks. some of the ACDs had the problem last year
with these peaks. Note that the peaks are only there for a few milli seconds! The builder himself of the controller says, that these peaks don't give
any advantage. I can't prove that because I only have basic eletronic skills. Now all the ACD drivers seem to be pissed in germany, LOL. I know guys
which are very very fast, even with standard 25ohm parma controllers without any kind of electronics.
Just wondering how far the discussion goes here now ;-))
cheers for now,
mike
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tamar
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 08:29
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The search for the holy grail..part II
Guys...discussions about hanky panky with controllers are as old as slotracing itself. And after half a decade all those NEW !!!!! ideas, have been
done, tried tested and deemed (il)legal at one time or the other in Slotracing history.
I remember when I started slotracing my home set controllers had no "negative" brake, and then a friend came by who had a Parma controller which
did. As he could brake half a meter later than all the others....everybody yelled faul play, unfair advantage...for a while..... and then they all
bought one.
Pulse Width Modulation has been used in controllers since the early 90's. Ever seen slotracers yank the trigger very fast up and down between full
and half throttle when they go through a chicane? A PWM uses more or less the same principle.
But instead of altering the voltage via a resistor PWM controlls the time the voltage is applied to the track...and does this at a much higher
frequenty.
The second thing I notice is that most forum dicussion on these type of topics are started by people who are, to put it nicely, not really experts in
the field of electronics. (a large group of people to which I also belong). But even so..just a little bit of common sense should give you eneough
clues to see what's true and what not.
"The acd controller gives voltage peaks back to the track when you brake."
If I need to brake the last thing I would want is for the controller to give power to my motor...so this makes no sense.
With most current controllers the brake is acuated via a fixed brake contact. You have to move the trigger to the contact position to brake.
A PWM controller can be build in such a way that it sends brake pulses in between the power pulses. When in the 90's a Dutch company Muco developped
their PWM controller the first prototypes used this brake, but it was dropped as for the "general slotracer" it felt "unnatural". Apperently the
ACD cotroller has a more refined version of this brake, it already starts giving brake pulses in between the power pulses when the wiper is being
moved towards the "brake" position.
See it as left foot braking in a real car. Which still takes skill to use it properly.
Traction Controll
An other "automotive" term mis used to describe features on a controller. Unless the ACD gets feedback info from the car to the controller when the
wheels are spinning there's no tracktion controll other than your ears, eyes and finally your finger.
Rules to govern what we want or want not
Which is what these discussions will lead to. What is a controller and what is it allowed to do. For many years we have had this article in our
General Technical Rules .
ART.3 ELECTRIC CIRCUITS
3.2 Controller: Any device operated by a driver regulating the electric power to control the speed of a slotcar is counted as a controller.
All Controllers are subject to inspection by the T.C. to verify compliance with the rules.
They must:
- Only regulate the supplied power for use on a given track.
- Not increase of the Lane voltage in reference to the power supply voltage.
- Regulation of the supplied power must be operated manually by the driver, automated operation of the controller is not allowed.
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tamar
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 09:09
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Have and Have not's Vs Technical evolution
| Quote: | Originally posted by Big Al
I agree with Mike,
ACD "et al" controllers do provide drivers with more control than other electronic controllers, it's a known fact. YES I'M MAKING AN ACCUSATION
FOLA!
Worlds events should be run like in Barca, with the same controllers supplied on the track. Everyone has the same tools. Remove any 'adjustments" or
make them inaccessable, and then the racing results will look different.
Regards
Big Al |
Guys...There are two seperate matters here in this discussion. First of all what is "whithin the current rules" legal and what not. This is a simple
case of logic. If I read Mike's case of the DPM/ACD controllers its an open and shut case.
If Yatronic wants to have its controller accepted for the DPM it has to improve its ACD controller so these power peaks do not occur, even if they
last a millisecond. For those are the DPM rules.
The other matter in this discussion seems to turn into one of the "have's against the have not's"
Those who do not have acces to controllers with such "advanced features" stating that those who do "have 'm" gain an unfair advantage.
I can imagine certain cases where an organiser might want to limit the controller options from a cost perspective (clubraces with lots of juniors
etc), but not on top competition level! If everybody is convinced that these controllers are so much better then please go and buy one!
In my opinion a controller is a piece of very personal equipment, one that you cherish and take very well care of.
I've been in races where the "organisation" has supplied the controllers...and it always sucked. Unfamiliar operation, technical faillures, no 2
controllers were the same.
That to me is an unfair competition.
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Zmachine
Posts: 35
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 10:21
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Mmmmhhhh, Hot thread indeed !
| Quote: | Message original : tamar
In my opinion a controller is a piece of very personal equipment, one that you cherish and take very well care of.
I've been in races where the "organisation" has supplied the controllers...and it always sucked. Unfamiliar operation, technical faillures, no 2
controllers were the same.
That to me is an unfair competition. |
I fully agree with you Tamar, a controller is just like a toothbrush, the only difference is that you can lend it to your (best) friends 
Sorry Terry but I feel sure it's not a good idea 
!!! World 1st original digital contactless slotracing controller prototype was designed & manufactured in 1987 !!!
... with digital inside, analogic outside ! I made it 
Still working ! Interested ? Ask my friend Philippe Destree for a try...
Philippe - Zmachine
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Zmachine
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 12:27
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Traction control is a FAKE !
Definitively, traction control or anti-spin feature are fakes !
From where do you get reliable feedback information which are absolutely indispensable to close the loop in any automated process ? 
All controllers that I ever learned are open loop control systems, that means no automated assistance for the driver in the fact, it's only a matter
of adjusting parameters to make driving more, let's say, "comfortable" and by the way efficient.
Concerning technical regulation, that should be quite simple, I propose only two points which have to appear in the lines of rules to qualify
electronic controllers:
1- Any hardware/software system in the controller or/and in any electronic module which may be present in the car, in order to produce an elevation
(xxx % for more than xxx milliseconds) of his output voltage to a higher one than it is supplied by the track system, is forbidden.
2- Any hardware/software system which is able to recover feedback information transmitted from any equipment in the car and to make use of this in
order to produce assistance for driving, is forbidden.
Quite simple in the lines in fact, but who could be designated as technical expert and proceed in such a qualification ? That's another problem
!
kindest regards to all of you,
Philippe.
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tamar
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 13:29
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Un official rumour
From a well informed source...but not yet officially confirmed.....so finally something that perfectly fits the "un official" Imca forum
Rumour has it that IMCA considers having a ... number of ACD controllers available at the worlds for those who want to use them. Use of "personal"
controllers will still be allowed as long as they are with in the rules.
Apparently this way IMCA wants to end the "yapping" by those who think that PWM or a ADC controllers are the holy Grail.
Good news for those who do not have one I would say
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Kaitsu
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 14:47
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Hi,
I have tested ACD Pro few times in our track. I have to say I got better laptimes with 15 ohm Parma Economy controller...
Henri, my team mate, used 15 ohm Economy without any adjustements in Oslo. No problem to go 5,8 s laps
-kai
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Massiven
Posts: 139
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 15:27
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ola,
I used an ACD during the Worlds 2007 too, but only becaus i fu..ed mine up during training. Was my own fault. The ACD is for smooth driving and
that's not my style. I'm kinda hardcore  . The only thing why I handled the ACD is because my Nismo had that less
gripp and that I mostly drifted around the course. Ask John and Fred, they can tell you how my Nismo went through the dount  . Seriously now, ACD is nothing for when there's grip on the track.
Can't handle that brake either.
Hopefully I can stay on my "Nezih-Drücker" or on my Carsteen.
Cheers,
Mike
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tamar
Posts: 804
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 16:02
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Its now official
| Quote: | Originally posted by tamar
From a well informed source...but not yet officially confirmed.....so finally something that perfectly fits the "un official" Imca forum
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Its now official...No fixed controllers for the worlds.....but.....IMCA will provide 12 ACD controllers for those who do not have 'm but do want to
use 'm. see this publication on the official IMCA Site.
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fola
Posts: 338
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Location: The PLANET Earth.
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 22:12
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Thats really good news for those who aint got one !
Personally feel that the controller and how one uses it is as important as the car and its build....
and is all a question of personal taste. Whats good for the goose is not necesarily good for the
gander ya'll think that the ACD is a super cheat, I know many that just cannot drive with it and prefer a standard or a nezih...and are just as fast
as any body else. All this Yakking about whose got what and
lets take his Toys (Tools) away is B*llsh*t every one has access so dont "hate" - go get one!
Remember guys, some animals are more equal....
Standardization makes life boring . Get Pro creative!!
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Whitemouse
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posted on 29-2-2008 at 21:56
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Halleluja Fola
PS: I hate the ACD, have tried a few, never got the thing working to my liking!
Cheers,
Paal Hanson
Vikings Scaleracing Club, Frederikssund, Denmark
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Gert
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posted on 1-3-2008 at 21:20
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Fixed Controlers
Thought that only the chassis where fixed.
I have active suspension is that going to be banned also
Nice to hear a good joke
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2h
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posted on 2-3-2008 at 16:36
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I concur with Tamar et al regarding controllers - it is a slotracer's tool - perchance the most important one, and you get a personal relationship to
it.
I had major problems with the fixed controllers in Barcelona - first because I didn't know it, second because the buttons were too small to adjust
for me, missing part of my thumb.
So in all fairness, escpeially for us handicapped, own controllers, pretty please.
BTW, I have an ACD controller - but have the same problem adjusting it since the 'chocke' button is soooo small.... 
But, if fixed controllers really is something that is really important to some - let's use a standard Parma Turbo Pro 15 ohm - without adjustments.
Best regards
Henrik
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Bimmer520
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posted on 7-3-2008 at 08:24
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I have just designed my own controller. It has adjustable responce time that can smooth the output voltage and reduce wheel spinning. I can turn it
off when the grip is good, but it's nice to use it when you have low friction. The controller also has a fixed output voltage like a PWM controller
and can brake the motor when reducing speed without fully releasing the throttle. I think this gives more controll of the car going into a curve.
My opinion is that personal controllers is a 'need to have'. As long as the output voltage is within the limits of the input supply voltage and you
control it yourself everything should be allowed.
I can think of several ways to build a controller that would increase the top speed and breaking, but that would be cheating. This can not be
accepted on either the controller or the car.
Connecting a oscilloscope to the controller output or the track can easily detect this. I do not think short voltage spikes on the input will matter,
but it could harm or distort other equipment connected to the same power. This only indicates a bad design on the ACD controllers that should be
corrected.
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